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Talk:Battle of the Goldroad
Name When was the First and Second Battles of Tumbleton? Pretty much every wiki I've been to battles in a conflict a numbered for each time the name was used for example: First Battle of the Salve, and Second Battle of the Salve.--Made up Character Wiki Admin Jack Jackson mod 11:39, August 5, 2017 (UTC) : The First and Second Battles of Tumbleton occurred during the Dance of the Dragons. : — Queen of the Andals and the First Men (talk) 11:43, August 5, 2017 (UTC) : Should you put such a specific name without official confirmation? [[User:Spanish assassin|'Spanish assassin']] (Talk) 12:04, August 5, 2017 (UTC) ::: There's already a Conjecture template on the article and if we get an official name for the battle, it can always be renamed. ::: — Queen of the Andals and the First Men (talk) 12:15, August 5, 2017 (UTC) ::: ok ^^ [[User:Spanish assassin|'Spanish assassin']] (Talk) 12:19, August 5, 2017 (UTC) I explain in the notes. I needed a placeholder name. The title is conjecture. I assume the other admins will debate this back and forth after the episode aired, but it seemed decent as a placeholder at least.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:02, August 5, 2017 (UTC) I don't think this is how nomenclature of battles work, although perhaps it is done differently in the ASOIAF world? The number of times a battle name is used won't carry on into a separate conflict, i.e. there can be two battles in Tumbleton in one war but a third battle that takes place in Tumbleton in another war would simply be called the Battle of Tumbleton, not the Third Battle of Tumbleton. Besides, there aren't even articles for the first two battles on the wiki, and if they are created, (Dance of the Dragons) can be included in the title of the articles and a disambiguation page can be created since this article is likely what people are looking for. Reddyredcp (talk) 04:30, August 6, 2017 (UTC) Valid points. Yeah...placeholder. The name itself we'll figure out after episode airs, I just wanted to get a skeleton up.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:32, August 6, 2017 (UTC) :Well if it isn't named in the episode perhaps the placeholder title could by something like Battle of Tumbleton (304) or Battle of Tumbleton (Invasion of Westeros). Just mere suggestions, no need to heed them.--Made up Character Wiki Admin Jack Jackson mod 05:49, August 6, 2017 (UTC) Alright, I finished up everything else and am turning to write this. I would have renamed it to at least "Battle of Tumbleton" and not "Third Battle of Tumbleton" but someone beat me to it already...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:16, August 7, 2017 (UTC) Could the "Second Field of Fire" be more succint. Volvlogia (talk) 15:52, August 7, 2017 (UTC) The Game of Thrones account officially calls it The Attack on the Loot Train... crud. I hate that name, but maybe we should go with something like it. Maybe... "Ambush of the Lannister Loot Train". MedusaandPoseiden (talk) 16:54, August 7, 2017 (UTC) What about "Battle on the Roseroad" or "Ambush on the Roseroad". I also think that "Second Field of Fire" would be a good name for it. Dr. Legendary (talk) 17:13, August 7, 2017 (UTC) I'm gonna agree with naming it after the Roseroad. That's the only confirmed location we have for the battle, aside from it being near to the Blackwater Rush Slemke98 (talk) 23:12, August 7, 2017 (UTC) Agreed that the placeholder name should contain Roseroad or Blackwater Rush. Aldebaran135a (talk) 02:51, August 10, 2017 (UTC) Should we just go with "Battle on the Roseroad" until an in-universe name is revealed? And if it isn't revealed, I think it is a good name in its own right. Much better than "Battle of Tumbleton" because it isn't in or outside Tumbleton, it is in an open field. Dr. Legendary (talk) 15:41, August 10, 2017 (UTC) :I agree we need a new name, regardless of what it is. - 16:20, August 10, 2017 (UTC) There is an HBO video on Youtube now called the making of 'The Loot Train Attack'. It is also called that in the video by exec. Bernie Caulfield, so I guess that's the correct title for this article. What they call it on-set and the formal name of the in-universe battle are two separate things. By that logic, the official name of the Ramsay/Sansa rape scene in Season 5, in the shooting schedule, was "Romance Dies" - do we use that as a title? ...Hopefully the next episode will give us more information, the trailer shows Daenerys addressing the surviving captured Lannister soldiers.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:15, August 8, 2017 (UTC) ....runner-up name would be "Battle of the Roseroad" I guess. I really hope the next episode explains more. I'll go with what Gonzalo84 wants.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:39, August 10, 2017 (UTC) Renaming the article, with script info: I've just checked out what I feel are reliable, leaked versions of the scripts. Early versions of the scripts, however, and only in outline form. I think they're accurate...as early versions that existed at some point. *The stage directions quite clearly describe the river they are crossing as, in fact, the Blackwater Rush. *(mild spoilers) when Jaime emerges from the river, he's actually closer to King's Landing, downriver, than he was before. *A stray mention, which might just be an error caught later...it doesn't seem like they paid much attention....describes the road they're on as the Kingsroad, not the Roseroad. Which doesn't make much sense, because the Roseroad merges with the Kingsroad south of the Blackwater, with King's Landing directly on the opposite side of the river, within sight of it. Moreover, the early description of the battle is nothing like what we see on screen: *A key part of the battle was going to be defending a bridge crossing. This is entirely cut from the actual episode, after the director updated it. *...an interview the director gave mentioned that they took some inspiration from Old West movies like Stagecoach, circling the wagons defensively....even though nothing like that happens in the final version. *In this early draft script, which I believe to be real, the Lannisters aren't just fighting for pure survival, but to defend their wagon train while it crosses the river (apparently cut from the final version because only an idiot would try to keep defending their wagons against such overwhelming odds). *'They explain, much more clearly', how the Lannisters were taken by surprise. In the books, Jaime is much more wary about always sending out scouts around his armies so he isn't caught unawares again like at Whispering Wood. In the draft, Randyll actually complains to Jaime that they took all of the grain they could physically carry back to King's Landing, by using nearly all of their soldiers on wagon-duty. To the point that they don't have enough men to use as scouts. Jaime actually agrees, and is deeply uncomfortable about it as well, but they're desperate, and the argument is that if they don't have the food they won't even be able to field an army for the scouts to protect for much longer. A bit forced, but okay, the original draft was going to acknowledge "we're short on manpower and don't have enough scouts". *The final version does have Randyll warn "we have to make sure the whole wagon train is across the Blackwater, if we're caught halfway across we're in trouble". Apparently Daenerys may have been waiting for this? Easier to rout half an army, concentration of force. Draft scripts explicitly makes clear that at least some of the grain, several years' worth, is now in King's Landing - maybe not enough to survive the whole winter, but enough for a few years, enough to be a bargaining chip (as Daenerys said before, she can't actually feed her Dothraki horde during winter, and Cersei hopes she can wait them out). *'The original version imitated ''Stagecoach and the Battle of Stamford Bridge.' Jaime and Randyll would circle up the wagons like in the Old West, to form a rearguard while the rest of the wagon train fled across the bridge. Drogon would attack ''first, long before the Dothraki arrive, and only after their defensive position is ruined does she unleash the Dothraki on them. Then she flies Drogon to the opposite side of the bridge to trap them men on it between the dragon and the Dothraki. This matches the director's description in confirmed interviews that it had some Stagecoach elements in it at first. As for Stamford Bridge....you can tell D&D are reading a lot of English history books to try to seem smart, but credit where credit is due...basically at Stamford Bridge, Harrold Godwinson's Saxons fell on the Viking rearguard as they were crossing a bridge, but a delaying action on the bridge actually managed to get the rest of their army across, where they reformed in good order. The problem was that to escape across the battlefield so quickly, they had to drop their heavy armor, and in the melee that followed, this proved a major weakness. Conclusions drawn from this: *The river is very explicitly the Blackwater Rush. If an early version of the script had them forcing a crossing while their rearguard is under assault...they wouldn't need to be crossing the upper Mander at that point. It's simple geography. Tumbleton is near the river but...it doesn't add up. And director interview seems to confirm the veracity of this description of the early version of the battle. Which means I can no longer say in good conscience it was fought near Tumbleton. *....how the heck can a stray mention say they're on the "Kingsroad"....when the Kingsroad crossing is opposite King's Landing? Where it's too wide to HAVE a bridge?! They use ferries. *Yet for this reason, "Battle of the Roseroad" would be inaccurate. No one actually states they're on the Roseroad, and the Roseroad turns into the Kingsroad by the time it crosses the Blackwater. *'Jaime also said they were going to be moving ''throughout the north of the Reach for a time, collecting more grain.' Why stay in the south, potentially hostile, south side of the Mander, when it makes more sense to head ''north of the Mander, closer to the Westerlands and the Goldroad? They're in better control there. *Article description shouldn't even mention that they went "east on the Roseroad" - they never state that at all. We assumed they went east on the highway, but in retrospect, they swirved north for a time. *Going through Westeros's history....it might have actually been fought fairly close to where Maegor fought the Battle of the Big Fork of the Blackwater. *The description that they were both crossing the Blackwater - not in sight of King's Landing - and using a bridge, when there is no bridge at the mouth of the river....leads me to conclude that this must have been fought somewhere farther west up the Blackwater river. *I would put it somewhere south of the point where the two forks of the Blackwater join together. They were coming from farther north in the Reach going due east, wanted to use a bridge instead of ferries on the Roseroad slowing them down, etc. Due to these factors, "Battle of Tumbleton" certainly can't be used, and "Battle of the Roseroad" really can't either (they never mention the Roseroad). While the bridge was cut from the final version, the story point remains that Randyll rides up and says "we need to get our whole wagon train across the Blackwater soon" and then their rearguard half of the army gets destroyed. Because crossing the river was still a story point in the final version, I'm going to rename this: "Battle of the Crossing of the Blackwater" At least provisionally, and because we already have one called "Battle of the Blackwater". Step in the right direction.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:15, August 11, 2017 (UTC) Or, looking at a map, should we call it "Battle of the Goldroad"? They might have been taking the Goldroad, it's the other major crossing of the Blackwater. This is a mess. Let's hope next episode clears this up.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:26, August 11, 2017 (UTC) Screw it, "Battle of the Crossing of the Blackwater" is both long and confusing with the other Season 2 battle. I'm going with "Battle of the Goldroad". It's got at least equal claim to "Battle of the Roseroad" given that: *1 - neither road is actually mentioned in dialogue, *2 - the Roseroad/Kingsroad path wouldn't go anywhere near a ford or a bridge when it actually crosses. *3 - the Goldroad does indeed cross the Blackwater at some point. So it's quite possible that Jaime simply went so far north it was preferable to use the crossing of the Goldroad over the Blackwater. Also, tonally, sounds like how they took all the gold up the road.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:35, August 11, 2017 (UTC) They just call it "The Look Train Attack". As for the other that's because we were cycling through what we thought will be the in-universe name (if and when it happens in the books). And we're pretty solid on "Goldroad" now (more than Tumbleton was for its brief tenure).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 12:58, August 11, 2017 (UTC) :Why don't we just go with something like "Attack on the Lannister supply train" and call it a day? Trying to determine exactly where it was fought when even the writers don't know or care is a waste of time. - 13:06, August 11, 2017 (UTC) So many suggestions for a name... how about a poll? Moonracer (talk) 13:33, August 11, 2017 (UTC) Because the writers should come up with formal "Battle" names and not make us stumble around like this. And I've come around to that it probably was the Goldroad crossing.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:57, August 11, 2017 (UTC) This article really should be named "Attack on the Lannister Loot Train" since no in-universe name exists yet for this battle. The production name used on the set "Loot Train Attack" is most authoritative until then. Lycheebun (talk) 18:54, August 12, 2017 (UTC) They didn't give it an "authoritative" name - they abdicated giving it an authoritative name. We can debate whether it was at the Goldroad or Roseroad (at this point it seems Goldroad), but it has to be in some formal format.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:11, August 12, 2017 (UTC) :I think it's difficult to say that signs are pointing to it being the Goldroad, but it certainly has equal claim to the Roseroad, as you mentioned before. For what it's worth, though the scripts have inaccurately mentioned the Kingsroad, they also stated that Jaime and his army were marching from the Roseroad after sacking Highgarden. Of course, the battle could have still taken along the Goldroad if Jaime and his army crossed to it from the Roseroad. Attack on the loot train could be a simple redirect, perhaps helping people find the actual article for the battle if they search for it. Reddyredcp (talk) 19:23, August 12, 2017 (UTC) 'Daenery's First Test' :In my comment, I didn't define "Loot Train Attack" as the authoritative name. However, it's the most authoritative name until an in-universe name is provided since it's a name used by the production staff. Every other name which has been suggested here such as "The Battle of the Goldroad" and "The Battle of Tumbleton" etc., are just public guesses based on unofficial speculation. There's no in-universe mentioning of where they are exactly, so why bother with naming this article based on speculative guesses from people unaffiliated with the show's production? Lycheebun (talk) 19:27, August 12, 2017 (UTC) :Guy's, I'm good friends with Carolyn Strauss, and she explained to me via skype (when asked for her opinion on the matter); that the "Battle" is hardly considered a battle. Rather it is more of an ambush. Seemingly we could continue to refer to it as a battle as many ambushes (i.e The Battle of Teutoberg Forest) are referred to as battles and therefore would not warrant for it to be renamed "Ambush of Goldroad/Blackwater rush". Likewise, some battles could have custom names, (i.e Aegon's First Test). Which brings us to the ''impressive ''similarities between Aegon's first test and Daenery's first test in which: :1. Both occurred near the Blackwater Rush :2. Both battles had the first use of each respective conqueror's Dragon. :3. Both battles showed the true power of the dragon's for the first time to those in Westeros (in the case of Daenery's it was reintroduced). :4. Both battles proved each conqueror's battle capabilities and earned them the right to be feared. :5. All commanders met their ends (excluding Jaime) in both battles. :I did not get an official reply as to the naming of the battle, however in all likelyhood it will come down to a joint decision weighing heavily on the decision of George R. R. Martin as he has yet to complete "Wind's of Winter". Numbers are completely wrong The Lannister army is mostly intact actually. Dany only took out the rear guard. There's no way there were 10,000 men there, 2000 at most. Also Tumbleton is pure speculation, we should wait for official confirmation before we start assuming things and publishing them as fact. Slemke98 (talk) 12:51, August 7, 2017 (UTC) Slight Dispute on Goldroad Title I have a slight dispute on the Goldroad title, if you'll indulge me on it, it doesn't make sense to me for Jaime to take the wagons cross country to the Goldroad, and from there move to King's Landing. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to have taken the Roseroad, which runs between Highgarden and King's Landing? My points for this are as follows 1. The Roseroad is shown on the map to cross the Blackwater Rush. 2. It makes more sense for the army with the wagons to stick to an actual road, rather than go cross country. 3. The Roseroad on the map is shown to run through a forest, on some stills from the scenes used in the article, a forest can be seen in the distance. Points against the Roseroad theory 1. King's Landing should be visible. 2. The forest doesn't seem thick enough. 3. I don't know enough about the geography to know if there's a bridge or not. Harbinger141 (talk) 08:44, August 11, 2017 (UTC) I don't get what's wrong with producers...!! Why don't they officially clear it up properly, where...how...when... in a video on their youtube channel?! One day, it's Loot Train Attack, next day it's changed to Battle of Tumbleton, next day it's changed to Battle of Goldroad...!?!?! River Mander... Blackwater Rush... Roseroad... Goldroad...?! They cleared up Battle of Blackwater, Hardhome, Winterfell before... then why the hell this time it's being called "Loot Train Attack"?! My say, call it "Loot Train Attack" on the wikia page, and write down, HBO whimsically did not officially and publicly inform not much further details about that Loot Train Attack. Sadsayeed (talk) 11:41, August 11, 2017 (UTC) Well, why Goldroad and not Roseroad: Jaime did say he was advancing north through the Reach to continue gathering up more grain - maybe he just went due north instead of northeast. Roseroad puts him kind of close to Dorne, straight north goes back to perceived safety of the Goldroad, closer to Westerlands, etc. We'll see more of the aftermath tomorrow night...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:50, August 12, 2017 (UTC) Why NOT Goldroad. Map: To reach Goldroad from Highgarden, they first would have to cross over 500 miles of Ocean Road through North-West; and then another about 700 miles of Goldroad to reach KL; total 1200 miles of thin stretched riding on food wagons. Whereas, on Roseroad, it's about 600 miles of journey from Highgarden to King's Landing. check GRRM's recommended Map from Lands of Ice and Fire at this link.↓ http://i.imgur.com/afgDShK.jpg Sadsayeed (talk) 04:41, August 13, 2017 (UTC) ...no one said they took the Ocean road. Rather, draw a straight line from Highgarden to Stoney Sept (though they stopped at the Goldroad). Fundamentally I don't think the TV writers themselves really thought this out, but we will. But hey, "Eastwatch" is set in the aftermath on the same battlefield, and hopefully will give us more info to go on...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:46, August 13, 2017 (UTC) There is also the problem of the mountains. Not on any of the maps of this area, (large) mountains are shown. They look very much like CGI, and they probably just put them in because they look cool, but they really shot themselves in the foot with it from a canonical geography standpoint, And,so far, the only reference made to the 'engagement' in a subsequent episode is by Tyrion, speaking to Daenerys, saying something like; 'any one of those arrows fired at you at the Blackwater Rush could have killed you', so, why not just call it: 'Ambush at the Blackwater Rush', because it was not a battle, it was just Daenerys and the Dothraki slaughtering Lannisters and Tarlys. RamsayS (talk) 22:44, September 10, 2017 (UTC) source Valar morghulis. (My English is not good) I am Melisandre from the german GoT-Wiki. Where is it said that there are 100,000 Dothraki who participated in the battle? I doubt that very much. Please provide a source. ~Melisandre I.